Cavanaugh James | Choosing a Life of Truth and Faith

Written By Nicole Christie

Author, podcast host, and consultant Cavanaugh James shares his journey from a childhood steeped in evangelical Christianity to a more authentic expression of self, particularly regarding his faith and sexuality. Cavanaugh reflects on pivotal moments that led him to embrace his true identity, including a transformative conversation with the Lord that encouraged him to live authentically without abandoning his faith. He also shares more about his book, Read the Room, which offers tools for building relational equity and developing meaningful connections in life and business. 

Show Notes:

  • [00:00:00] Nicole: Welcome to Here For Me, a podcast about the power of choosing yourself. I'm Nicole Christie, and I'm honored you're joining me as we talk about how life teaches us to put ourselves first. Because just as we say, I'm here for you to show we care for someone, saying I'm here for me to ourselves is the best form of self care.

    Today, I'm talking with Cavanaugh James. Cavanaugh is an author, podcast host, and consultant who's passionate about helping people create meaningful connections in life and business. In his most recent book, Read the Room, he shares tools that help people gain, safeguard, and grow their relational equity wherever they are.

    And on his podcast, also titled Read the Room, he talks with inspiring artists like Nick Jonas, Jordan McGraw, and Priyanka Chopra Jonas about the intricacies, nuances, and dynamics of our relationship with others. Cavanaugh is also well-versed in the power of choosing yourself. He studied both theater and business marketing, with a career that includes chapters as a performer, entrepreneur, and worship leader.

    Raised Evangelical Christian in Dallas, Cavanaugh initially felt called to help people grow in authentic relationship with Jesus. But a few key encounters with God redirected the trajectory of his life and goals. I spoke with Cavanaugh about this journey in a social context earlier this year and wanted him to share it on here for me, not only because it's an inspiring story of choosing oneself, but to shed light on how it's possible and why it's necessary to have these candid conversations about differences in faith, sexuality, and generational experiences, as well as find the common threads that exist between all of us as humans.

    I'm honored to talk with Cavanaugh today and for you to hear about the journey that changed the course of his life and brought him into alignment with his authentic self, all shared with his refreshing humor and vulnerability that make him not only a gifted storyteller, but a beautiful and compassionate soul.

    [00:02:12] Cavanaugh: My goodness. How do I live up to that? What an intro, Nicole.

    [00:02:16] Nicole: Welcome to Here For Me. Thank you. Oh my God. I'm so happy to have you here. And I want to give listeners a back story of how we met, which is that you actually produced an episode of Here For Me last season, the one with Rabbi Cantor Judy Greenfeld.

    And afterward, you, Judy, and I had the most epic conversation about faith and relationships and sexuality. Particularly amongst different generations. You're a millennial. I'm a Gen Xer. Judy is a baby boomer. And I was so fascinated by your journey growing up evangelical Christian, and how you felt compelled to live a certain way that ultimately was out of alignment with who you are.

    And when you first shared that journey with me, you said—I don't know if you remember this–you said, Jesus and I took a walk. And he said, You served your time, you helped people on the path, and now it is time for you to live more authentically and serve in a different way. 

    [00:03:17] Cavanaugh: Mm. Yeah. 

    [00:03:19] Nicole: You did so without abandoning your faith, which I think is really beautiful.

    And I don't think that's always the case with people who have walked a similar path. So let's get into it. Yes, let's go. 

    [00:03:30] Cavanaugh: I'm here for it. 

    [00:03:31] Nicole: Let's start with your upbringing in Dallas. What was your childhood like? And what did you envision for your life growing up? 

    [00:03:38] Cavanaugh: Well, my childhood was honestly pretty great and idyllic.

    I have really amazing parents who are incredibly loving and kind and always have been. I have three older siblings. We grew right smack dab in the middle of the Bible belt buckle in Dallas. And, from the time I can remember, we were plugged into large ministry. You know, mega church culture is obviously something that I feel like we're all at least a little bit aware of.

    And my father and mother have both been very influential to a lot of leaders’ lives. And my dad had a business for a long while that helped build donations for other people. And it did so in such an integrous, beautiful way that I still am like, I just respect and revere how he would support people. 

    So I definitely knew that I was going to be plugged into a church, what we would call the body and evangelical world, and that I would be serving there in some way. And as I was coming up and coming to faith, as we'd say, and making my own decisions, I always wanted to be in theater. I mean, the first show I ever saw, this is so nerdy, but the first show I ever saw was Cats, right?

    That's so awesome. I mean, it's just, and that's such a, I've like, I don't think that you could pay me to go see it. I loved it as a three year old. And that's how old I was. I was three and my parents were like, uh, you didn't move at all in theater. And so I just always loved theater. But then, this like, contradiction between theater and where I really knew I was meant to be. And then the environment where I was, which was church, felt at odds. So there was like, as early as I can remember, a caution that was like paired with my love for the creative art. 

    So in my heart, I wanted to be a performer. I think I knew I was going to be in ministry somehow. 

    [00:05:14] Nicole: You were leading worship and services at Gateway Church in Southlake, Texas.

    Why did you feel called to that? How is that serving you? 

    [00:05:23] Cavanaugh: Well, because it wasn't about me. I think that sometimes the best things that we can do for ourselves are to get out of ourselves. And so I went through a great many years of figuring out, obviously, to your point of sexuality, wrestling with that and wrestling with my environment and how I was going to actually make it through the end of my life successfully.

    There were a lot of contradictory, um, thoughts and feelings that I had going on from what I was surrounded by, the messaging I was getting, and what I was feeling in myself, and so it took a long while of actually being in a place where I was like, okay, I don't need to worry about myself right now. What I can do is connect to the Lord.

    And what I can do is love other people really well. And so I got really good at those two things. So the worship leading was really serving me in that I wasn't in my own head about me. I was actually like pouring out what was in my heart to the Lord. And I was also encouraging other people to continue in their pursuit of relationship with the Lord, or to receive healing in an area all the while still really struggling. 

    So it is an odd thing because I think sometimes people look at that time and they go, well, that feels like contradictory. And I'm like, it's really not. I love the Lord. And I still really love the Lord. And I love leading worship. It served me because it was time for me to put the focus where it should have been, which wasn't on me.

    [00:06:44] Nicole: I think what people are reacting to when you talk about it is they're feeling like you're self abandoning. And it doesn't have to be that way. And it may not have been time for you to even examine any of that, right? So it's like the Lord's giving you time to like, can you serve these other people while we sit with this for a little bit?

    I think that for you, maybe that was just this safe space.

    [00:07:04] Cavanaugh: Yes, it definitely was. And to your point, it wasn't the right time. I'm a big believer, big believer, of timing and how things unfold when they're supposed to and that the right doors and the right conversations and the kind of moments where you're like, Oh, I'm good to walk away from this.

    You know, when you referenced earlier about me having that conversation with the Lord where he was like, we can let it go and it's time to move on. That's a point I had to get to, but it wasn't from any other place than a really honest, true place of, I had gotten to that point. And I think if I had tried to do it way earlier, it would have been out of timing, and it could have been a lot messier.

    [00:07:40] Nicole: Yeah, I went through an abusive marriage. And I had people saying things to me like, why didn't you leave sooner? Why didn't you leave earlier? Or I met my husband online and just recently a friend was like, do you regret that you didn't go on more than one date online? Like you wouldn't have met him. And I was like, no, because I believe he was the teacher I needed for as long as I needed him.

    And by the time I left 10 years in, that was the moment people were like, you should have left three years ago. No, you do it when you, are ready to do it. 

    [00:08:09] Cavanaugh: That's, that's so interesting to hear you say that because I'm like, I obviously incredibly different things. The peace of mind that comes whenever you're able to recognize that timing and it's appropriateness in your life gives so much peace over what other people can't make sense of.

    [00:08:25] Nicole: Exactly. Because they're just looking at what they think you should have done. And you're like, I just, I, you had to do it when you were. ready to do it. And then you do it with peace, like you said, and probably also, I don't know if you feel this way, but a contentment with if there's any judgment from anyone else, you're like, I'm, that's fine.

    I've worked through it. Yeah. I've already worked through it. You can be judgmental of me. I'm good with that. Whereas I feel like if you do things, before you're ready to, you're more prone to other people pulling you in other directions and then getting really off course and then getting even more lost.

    [00:08:59] Cavanaugh: Yeah, you become really susceptible to everyone else's opinion and to the trajectories they think that you're supposed to go down. In the church, you know, you are kind of brought up in this language of you very much revere the leadership who is in your life. And so there are so many people who I love and adore whose lives got altered a bit.

    And I'm not saying that it wasn't necessarily what was supposed to happen, but if you're looking at it, you're like a key leader spoke this into their life and they thought that that was the Lord. And so they walked down this path to then realize, Oh, I've missed 10 years. And I wasn't actually being honest, authentic and obedient to what I should have been doing and where I should have been walking.

    [00:09:39] Nicole: I've heard myself say, I wasted my forties. And I'm like, why did you just say that out loud? Beause you didn't, you didn't waste it. I really also felt like that moment that I had that epiphany, there was just. So much clarity.

    [00:09:54] Cavanaugh: Yes. And then anybody can like say whatever they want. And I always think about it as like, uh, now when I talk to people about my life, it's more so like I'm inviting them into a room with all the lights on.

    And there are plenty of cupboards and there are plenty of places to look, but I know where everything is. 

    [00:10:10] Nicole: I love that analogy. 

    [00:10:12] Cavanaugh: So it's like, It's like they can come in and talk about all the disorder, but I can tell you which magazine is stacked on which. 

    [00:10:17] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

    [00:10:18] Cavanaugh: And it's mine. Yeah. And it's my mess. 

    [00:10:20] Nicole: Yep.

    [00:10:20] Cavanaugh: And to be honest, I don't know how many people are willing to open up the rooms of their lives and say,go. “I’ve actually gone through all of this and you're going to see some mess and you're going to see some broken things, but you're also going to see every bit of me and I've touched it all and I've massaged it and the pages are worn over there and it's lived in.”

    [00:10:49] Nicole: You are, um, what I would call, it's another analogy for what you're saying, you're not afraid to shine the light on all the corners. Like you said, you're like, Oh, what's going on? There's some dust there. Okay. We'll deal with it. But I know that it's there. Like, and you're, you're somebody that wants to continue becoming self aware.

    Like, you're not afraid of that. You're not afraid of the shadow self as you know, like Carl Jung calls it the shadow self. And you have to examine that. So many people are afraid of that. I'm curious if you find that because you're a bright light. Thank you. You too. We've got some bright lights here. We've got some bright lights here.

    Do you find that other people are as drawn to that as they are sometimes repelled by it because your light is shining on their stuff that they don't want to face? 

    [00:11:32] Cavanaugh: You know, I don't think about it necessarily as like, me shining a light on their stuff as much as I'm like, if you're gonna do a relationship with me, it's bright over here.

    So, it's like an invitation constantly. It's not about lopping people off, but like, I genuinely, uh, I'm not afraid say this about me a couple months ago, it was like, I realized with Cavanaugh, there's no option of like, you can't be Cavanaugh's acquaintance. Like you either really know Cavanaugh or you don't know him at all.

    And it's not because I'm trying, I think maybe church stuff and whatever else. I am a bit more protective than I used to be, but it's also that like, I walk at a depth because I've had to walk at a depth to survive. And so for me, it's like, it's like, it's become, uh, very difficult for me to be around people who aren't willing to do that.

    So I would say to that point, people are drawn to vulnerability and to someone being level and humble enough to be able to own their stuff while lovingly talking to you through yours. And without judgment. People are drawn to that, but people who have ulterior motives, people who are seedy, people who do have things that they need to shore up, do repel.

    Because I'm not trying to get anyone. So whenever someone reacts to me as if I'm trying to get them, It tells me that there's something that they need to be gotten. 

    [00:12:49] Nicole: I think you're right about that. When you walk a deep path, when you shine light on all of your shadows, it's impossible to be there. And I echo that because having been through what I've been through the last five years with cancer and my marriage and all this, I'm unable to do it.

    And it's hard, like you're saying, it's very hard to be around those superficial people. I'm actually not feeling well being around that energy. But then I've also had people that I feel like they see you, not you personally, but just people like you and it's like threatening or something to them, right?

    So they're like, Oh, I can't deal with the, with the bright light and I don't want to look at my stuff. And then they just disappear. 

    [00:13:27] Cavanaugh: Yes. That's happened too. I always just try to be like, open armed. I recently had a conversation with someone who I've known for many a year, And we've never really been close and we had like a final, like a real heart to heart.

    You know, he was talking about bringing a love interest around and he was like, you know, I just don't like the way the group acts. I'm like, we have had a sticking point because I actually really like you, but you don't understand what you come into the room with and how you set people up to lose. And so can we talk about it?

    And he was like, let's go. And he was willing, no different than I would have wanted 10 years ago had I known he was willing to go talk to me. What do you see? And within that, like, place of safety of knowing, like, I don't care if you see something that you don't like because that one thing you don't like doesn't define me.

    And I'm actually much bigger than that. And the fact that you can sit and lovingly tell me the thing, means that you have space for all of me. And so I can feel safe in that. And the more that you just remain a safe place for people, the more they want to trust you. Of course, that's what you do. 

    [00:14:27] Nicole: That's what reading the room is.

    That's what your whole being is. It's who you are in your soul. 

    [00:14:32] Cavanaugh: Oh, that means a lot. I'm the most passionate about it and the most passionate about making people feel at home wherever I am. And there are definitely people, you know, I'm not to say that I'm like everybody's bestie.

    [00:14:45] Nicole: I don’t know, I kind of think people are your bestie, like, very quickly. But I don’t know, I’m just saying.

    [00:14:49] Cavanaugh: I don't know, I'm just saying. I just like, I don't just give away every bit of myself, so I'm not like some open tap, you know, that's just available.

    [00:14:59] Nicole: Your energy is protected. 

    [00:14:59] Cavanaugh: It is protected. But the heart and like the posture of me is like, Come on, let's go.

    I'm willing to have the conversations and because I remember, back to upbringing, back to high school, back to everywhere where I had to learn these tools and how I felt at that time. The isolation and like the, you know, the, how hung up you'd get in maybe the way that you think someone's perceiving you because of a comment they made 10 minutes ago.

    And then now that takes you out of the conversation that you really should be in over here. And I know what that can create. I recognize it when people are dealing with it. I recognize it in myself. And so with the book, with the show, we can all come together and have space for where everybody's at. We can really genuinely love each other.

    And even in those differences, even if we're talking about where I've had to get to in my relationship with sexuality and the Lord and all of that. And you could think I'm going to hell or not believe in God or whatever. And you can actually love me in the middle of having a disagreement and I can love you and we can meet in the middle and it not break either of us.

    [00:16:01] Nicole: It’s a holding space, right? And unfortunately, we live in such a divided world, and particularly in the U. S. right now. What you're doing, you're leading this charge that people need to do more globally. 

    I want to back up to what you were talking about, about that moment when you were like, things about, you know, sexuality, God, people may agree or disagree or think whatever they will about you.

    Walk us through that moment when you and Jesus took a walk. 

    [00:16:28] Cavanaugh: I've never talked about this before, just so you know. 

    [00:16:30] Nicole: Okay, we're holding space for you. We're holding space and reading the room. How did that unfold? And what did you do once you had that epiphany? 

    [00:16:36] Cavanaugh: I'll try to do this quickly, but to just give a little context, I have only ever been attracted to guys.

    And that's been from the time I can remember, like four, I think it was the first time. Started telling my parents about that when I was probably like, 12, 13, grew up with a lot of, you know, not even from just my parents, from community. Don't stand like that. You look gay. Don't talk like that. 

    You know, a lot of like my, uh, the amount of time it took me to get on platform, as we call on stage, is other people would think, you know, church was a lot to do with my gesticulation and with my feminine nature and that kind of stuff.

    But I came to faith when I was 18 and I was wrestling with that and I had a scholarship from musical theater. And I gave my heart to the Lord and, and I was like, I feel like I'm supposed to go to Bible college and I feel like I'm supposed to basically turn my life and, and this is going to get set right in me and I'm going to be able to have the life that I want.

    And I was at 18 and then, you know, I, I live a lot of life. And then, at like 27, I write a book that I felt like I was supposed to write about my life, but then was also encouraged from the perspective of like, but you're choosing the right way when it comes to your sexuality. So you should really tell that story.

    And so I ended up telling my story in that way and writing a book that was championed to be a book of like, I have gay thoughts, but I'm not. And I'm choosing the Lord. And you know, even if you read it now, it's, I haven't gone back and read it in a couple of years because it's just, it's a painful time for me, but it's like the heart and intent of it, I still know I was right.

    I was just genuinely saying, like, outside of what we've come to believe about ourselves, can we come to know the Lord better? Like, I want to know the Lord better than I even know myself. And so that was the heart. 

    And then, you know, I moved to L. A. and it just becomes a bit untenable. Meaning that I'm not, like, going out and being, you know, lascivious and all that.

    I'm just suicidal. And really dark, dark heaviness of just being like, there's no way out for me to any bit of life that I'm actually going to be able to enjoy. So I'm leading worship in the middle of this time and just like wrestling, really, really wrestling and talking to leadership and being as communicative as I can be about it and upfront.

    But it wasn't like shifting and me and no one knew what to do. And people are just kind of like, but, but you, you know what? You're being obedient. You're loving the Lord and you're going to be happy and God's got you. And you know, I love all of those people. I don't like, I don't

    [00:19:05] Nicole: You're not shaming anyone.I sense that.

    [00:19:06] Cavanaugh: But I went to London for a couple of months with a friend, you mentioned her with Priyanka. So I was with her for a few months and Pri just, like, knew all of this stuff about me. She's very, very intuitive and aware. 

    And she just asked me one day when I was over there, she was like, Hey, can I ask you a question? What about love? 

    And it was like this dam broke in me where I was so angry and I was like, what do you mean? What like I don't get to have it. So what do you mean? Like, don't ask me something so cruel. And she was like, no, no, no. She was like, Cavanaugh, look, I don't want to tell you to do, think, believe anything.

    I just want to give you a month where you feel and know that you can just be yourself. Exactly as you are, and that you can go and walk if you want to go to a bar, if you want to go out, if you don't want to go out, if you want to talk about this, just use this as like catching your breath time. And it really was.

    And it was like, every day I would walk from our place all the way to the Thames and it was like a 12 mile back and forth. And I was just fighting and I was crying, literally back and forth, crying the whole time. 

    So there was a night that she had some friends come over and there was a guy there that was like, out of my book of who I would have wanted to, you know, be into me. It's like, and, and he, he was like very flirty and fun. 

    It flipped a thing for me where I was like, could someone actually even be attracted to me in this way? And like, I just had never felt attractive. I had never felt like anyone could be into me. I was like, it was such an arrested development recognition that I was like, I'm 30 now, and I genuinely feel like a 15 year old.

    Now we have to make like, real decisions. Because now that I know that there's, this is like an option, then I've got to figure out what to do with it. And so that walk happened in the middle of that time. And I was in Kensington Gardens, which is a beautiful place to go and cry with the Lord. 

    [00:21:08] Nicole: Yep. 

    [00:21:08] Cavanaugh: Yeah. And I was walking, I was listening to this one worship album and I was just like, Lord, you really know my heart. And you really have walked with me. I've been so honest with you about every bit of this and I'm really done trying to make this make sense to anyone else because I feel peace from you to move forward. And I don't feel like I'm going to get it from people. 

    And the Lord was like, you do have peace to move forward. But I want you to include me and not think that I am over here going, I don't want to talk to Cavanaugh about that.

    Because I definitely in my heart, been like, God can't love me. People can't love me. This is who I'm going to be. 

    And the Lord was like, Oh, kid, no, and we're going to get you into a good space. And I've described it as surgery. It was coming out of the environment I was in. I was on contract at church and it was a fairly public position and that I just, I couldn't be any bit of myself I felt like in that area. 

    And so every time I would be in Dallas, it was just like, I felt like a caged kind of crazy person. So I came home and it was like, okay, Lord, so we need to figure out what this looks like. But of course, you know, I come back, I talked to some oversight people, you know, and they just kind of ignore it a little bit like, Oh, well, that'll go away.

    And I'm like, I'm telling you, it's not going away. And then I just, I felt such stagnant movement there. And so it was like, okay, let's figure out what it looks like to actually make moves. So that was, getting business set up out in LA and starting to tell people, no, I'm moving. 

    And, uh, you know, there was a moment, I share this story and, and regardless of, of what you believe, I'm like, I hope that this is encouraging. Because sometimes, you know, we make big swings, big decisions, and we're like, was that right? Is this okay? You know, you wrestle with that. 

    And I remember that I had gone to a last, like, worship night. And, in the church, we'd say, like, sometimes when your time is up someplace, it's like the grace has lifted. It's a really tangible feeling, where when, maybe at one point you feel like, no, I'm supposed to be here, and I'm called to here, where it's like, I'm actually good not being here.

    And I was in a worship night, and I genuinely felt the grace lift and the Lord say, it's okay. And it's time, I'm releasing you. 

    And the next day I was like, no, one's going to believe that everyone's going to think Cavanaugh just wants to get out of town. And I was at lunch with a friend and I was telling him this very story.

    I was like last night, I was at the worship night, and he's on staff at the church. And I was like, regardless of sexuality and where I'm at, like my time here is done. The Lord has released me. And he was like, yeah, I just don't know. 

    As we're having the conversation, Nicole, a woman comes up and taps me on the shoulder, and she was a congregant and really, really sweet woman who would just from time to time find me as I was like out hanging about in the, in the foyer or something and be like, Hey, Cavanaugh, um, the Lord wanted me to tell you, and it would be like spot on encouragement.

    And so she, she came up and she tapped me on the shoulder and she was like, I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt. I'm really sorry. Cavanaugh, when I walked in, the Lord told me to come over and tell you that you've been waiting to know if you're supposed to stay or go, and you've heard the Lord. You're released.

    And I was like, what? And she was like, I love you. Like, go get him. She had no context, no context whatsoever. And it was like, none of my oversight were there for that moment. And I was like, and I'm done. And I had moved, I think a month later. 

    [00:24:38] Nicole: Wow. Here, to LA. You're like, I'm done. You weren't at a point where you needed that validation, but to get it while you're telling your friend?

    [00:24:46] Cavanaugh: It was crazy. I thought even more so it was for him too, because you know, when you talk about generations and, and you know, even millennial generation and some of my best friends who really, really love the Lord and love people have really struggled with where I'm at in life. With me being, you know, now out and just genuinely wanting to find a partner.

    There are so many questions and there's so much fear and with the way we're raised and with the way that we're taught to read the bible. And there's a lot of that that comes into play. And so I have to hold space for other people to not be okay with me right now. And I felt like it was a gift from the Lord so that he saw that I wasn't actually walking out in rebellion, as we'd say. Like, I'm not walking out because I'm mad or because I'm hurt. I'm walking out because it's time to walk out. 

    [00:25:30] Nicole: It's time to walk out, and you're walking out with grace. Um, so you get to LA. I'm curious how your relationship with faith, now that you're out, you're here, you're, uh, in alignment or very closely or not, I don't think any of us are fully aligned, right?

    But you're living authentically. How has your relationship with faith changed? And what is the involvement that you have at the church now? 

    [00:25:52] Cavanaugh: So I am not involved with the church now, like with a physical building. To be real too, I've spent a lot of time at like, uh, you know, In the back end, I've always said, I've been behind the wizard's curtain a little too long.

    And so I genuinely needed time to not be in a place, what we call serving, but it has been difficult to find a church that I've really connected to that way out here. And to your point, it's like my relationship with the Lord has been more deep, steady, and I've come to actually know my relationship as one on one outside of influence and like theology that is put on top of me.

    The Lord's met me in provision. He's met me in direction. He's met me in heartbreak. He's met me in my sorting through all of this and what has been an incredibly lonely time of figuring that out. It's isolating, but I'm like, the Lord and I are good. A lot of times what happens when you step away from being involved in a public space in church is that people kind of, it would be like this, if you're me in this scenario, I'd be like, Nicole, how are you?

    Oh, you're good. Okay. I, you know, I've just, I've been praying for you. And it's like, there is an interest in you that is tied to them finding out what's going on and with them being able to speak into it or being able to touch it or being able to be the one to talk some sense into you. And, and there's, there's an element of that that is just a little bit transparent for me and to be real to, you know, the amount of time I've spent in the church and the amount of time that in tandem I've spent traveling on the road with artists and being in the thick of Hollywood. 

    I, I really, I've seen what people call fake in all different areas, but I've seen it a lot in the church. So I'm really just, um, really about like genuine relationships. So I want community with people who believe in the Lord, who are honest. are not afraid to be messy and aren't afraid to actually go like, this thing sucked.

    And I know that the Lord says this, but I don't believe it today. Or like, I know that this is correct, but I'm wrestling with it. Or this is a thing I can't let go of. Like, that's church. That is the original imprint of church is community. So the way it's gotten dressed up, and especially in the South, is not true.

    Um, it's not so much of interest to me anymore. It's not about the Lord. It's not about Jesus. It's genuinely about the things that have been built up around him. 

    [00:28:13] Nicole: I feel like you're in this box and then you're out of it and people are like, I need you to get back in there. And so I'm praying. So you go back in there and I'm uncomfortable because you're not there.

    And you and I talked about this a few months ago that I was raised conservative Christian, but Lutheran, about as liberal as it can get as far as religion. I mean, we drink beer at Oktoberfest in the basement at church, but there are still like boxes to check. And my parents are still very conservative and I would consider myself a more spiritual person now, but it's like all these boxes, right?

    If I go to church on Sundays and I, and I tithe this amount of money, but then there's all this, what I would call like non-Jesus-like behavior of not loving, of not accepting. 

    And I'm like, do you remember the teachings of Jesus and the acceptance and the love? Why are you shaming? That was the part of it that actually sort of led me away.

    [00:29:06] Cavanaugh: Well, that's the interesting thing is that I, you know, that's kind of the thing. I feel like my friends are tired of hearing me say this, but whenever I'm around someone who wants to get really impassioned, like, about like the right and wrongness of someone else or in what they're doing. It's sometimes really hard for me, or like in theology or in politics or whatever it is, because the word is actually pretty simple as far as our mandate as believers.

    And like, if we talk about levels of importance, it's love the Lord, your God, with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And it's like, and then love your neighbor as yourself, and I haven't perfected either of those, so I don't have time to skip down the line and come and check your homework. You know what I mean?

    [00:29:51] Nicole: Yeah, you're like, I'm sorry, my eyes are on my own paper. 

    [00:29:54] Cavanaugh: They’re on my own paper. And I was, I was having a conversation with someone who was talking about, uh, you know, a flat earth policy, and I was like, cool, believe whatever you want to believe. And they're talking about and they're trying to find theology in the Bible to support it. And they're asking me what I think. 

    And I said, what I just said of like, well, I, I'm just kind of concerned on loving the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind, strength, and then loving my neighbor as myself. When I have time for the side missions and I've completed the main objectives, I'll get there. I don't think I'm going to on this side of heaven though.

    So I actually can take off the pressure. of having to judge you in every decision you're making, and I can meet you in the love and let the Lord meet you in the correction. 

    [00:30:29] Nicole: Yes, thank you for that. Why is that not more of the attitude or the way that people walk through the world? 

    [00:30:36] Cavanaugh: Because I believe, I mean, you're asking, I'm like, that's partly rhetorical, I know, but I'm coming in.

    It's partly because unless you have been leveled. And unless you have genuinely seen yourself at the floor where the Lord meets Mary Magdalene, at that same dirty road and the Lord says, Hey, we ready to stand up now? Unless you've gotten there, you don't have the humility. 

    And the truth is, is that so many people, and I love people who come to faith like early on in their life, and they have this beautifully pure thing with the Lord, but it also sometimes creates this thing of, thing that gives people a license to talk to you about all the things in your life.

    And then it's like always this person who's the control freak or this person who is like so buttoned up and their sin is in that closet back there under lock and key that you wouldn't even find it.

    [00:31:25] Nicole: We know the skeletons are back there, but you're going to pretend they're not.

    [00:31:29] Cavanaugh: Or maybe you are that great, right? But because you're unable to actually meet people in their humanity you live isolated from real authentic relationships.

    [00:31:37] Nicole: And I think it's because they're like, Oh, I don't want to leave this box because then I will have to face something. 

    [00:31:43] Cavanaugh: Yeah. The facing is only difficult if you're afraid of what's on the other side of facing. And that's to that point. It's like, you know, when you've seen whatever your bottom moment is, for me, it was, I mean, not to get dark.

    I'm just, we're going to get dark. No, but I just, there, there was so many moments where like, I was like, Oh, I could just fall off this hike right here. And when that becomes like a real thought or like, okay, so I could get in a car accident over here and I could do it. It wouldn't actually hurt someone. And my car would…

    When you're getting to like a level of ideation of darkness, it's like, no, the Lord met me there. I can meet you in your fib that you just told or in that like, crappy thing you just said because the Lord pulled me off the side of a mountain so I can meet you on the side of yours. And if you haven't gone through it you can tell it and it's like it's like it's showing. 

    [00:32:39] Nicole: I can tell you. I right now have not been there so judge all you want. But you hold space for people beautifully. Right?

    [00:32:45] Cavanaugh: Well, you do too. I mean, it's, but that's why we recognize it.

    [00:32:49] Nicole: You see it in the other person.

    [00:32:50] Cavanaugh: I think that when you've gone through heavy stuff, you just kind of lose the, I don't know, willingness to have much of anything less than authentic, vulnerable, kind, and from a place of like good intentions. 

    [00:33:03] Nicole: I talked about with another guest that one of the ways I knew I had sort of awakened, right, and come really into the spiritual journey was when I just sort of started seeing everybody on their path.

    And when I was younger, I'd be like, Oh, this person is so screwed up. Why aren't they doing this? Don't they know how to do this? Like I had all the answers. And suddenly I was like, Oh no, no, that's just where they are. And you talked about timing, divine timing, things unfolding. I can be like, that's okay.

    It's your journey. I don't actually know what you need to do. It's your journey. You're there. What you do is generally not about me either. You know, if I've done something to hurt you, I hope you'll tell me or whatever. Right. But that was such a moment when judgment just at least 90 percent of it fell away.

    Right. None of us are perfect. We're always walking that path. And it came to me through almost dying multiple times being sick and doctors saying, chance of death, chance of death, chance of death, chance of like five times. And you're like, okay, this is where we're at. 

    [00:34:00] Cavanaugh: In that leveling, what was that moment for you where you first started seeing that change and how you were seeing it?

    What was that flip for you? 

    [00:34:07] Nicole: I just had more grace for people wherever I went. I didn't get angry about things the way I did. I wasn't as impatient as I used to be. And I also felt like, man, life is short. So let's try to walk a path of purpose and authenticity and alignment because I had been ignoring it for 49 years.

    And suddenly it was like, you have to do this. And also I saw it for the first time, an expression of my gifts and talents as a service. Because I think, all up until that point, my parents were like, you're not all that. You don't deserve that. Nobody wants to read what you write or nobody wants to listen to the…, nobody, that's not being humble. That's putting yourself on a stage. That's all of that. 

    [00:34:45] Cavanaugh: We’re here to serve. It's that church mentality. Like, no, no, no. Don't be so pious. Don't be like... 

    [00:34:51] Nicole: Exactly. That's exactly it. And suddenly I was like, wait a minute, I have been given gifts to give back to the world. That's my purpose.

    There are things that I do well. So I'm going to start telling stories. I'm going to start having conversations with wonderful people like yourself. I was always writing. It was just always done in corporate. So all of that leveling what I call a tower moment, right? It's like everything crumbles. That's how it came to be for me.

    And then just like, I think it is, you're leveled. And then you realize I'm not above anybody, so I can't judge anyone. Because I'm, you said I'm down here with Mary Magdalene.

    [00:35:24] Cavanaugh: It’s also nice to be on the ground.

    [00:35:26] Nicole: Yes. It is.

    [00:35:29] Cavanaugh: It’s also nice to be like, oh that was a long fall, but I found the ground. 

    [00:35:32] Nicole: Yeah. And also you're like, this is it.

    I mean, I have a friend who just went through something terrible and I was like, I'm gonna tell you something. This is, without question, the worst thing you will go through. This is the worst, one of the worst things a human being can go through. Period. Congratulations. You're at rock bottom. 

    [00:35:50] Cavanaugh: It's only up from here, kid.

    [00:35:54] Nicole: Welcome.

    So I want to talk about Read the Room. You have said it's an expression of your purpose, which you have said is helping people navigate the treacherous waters of self image, healthy relationships, and the ego inflating ups and downs of chasing one's dreams. You also help people build relational equity, which you talked about in your intro, and you touched on this earlier.

    And you've said, Our fullest life begins the second we start living like we're not the only one in it. 

    So talk about how you work with others in this way and why it is so important in today's world. 

    [00:36:26] Cavanaugh: This was something that I never sought out as far as a subject matter thing to really write on. It's birthed out of everything that we have been talking about.

    The book really came out of my life and out of my story and I just never really felt like I belonged. So, you know, when you talk about people wanting to put me in a box, that's not definitely how I felt, was that, you know, I was supposed to be in the church box, but I really wanted to be in the theater box.

    But then I'd be in the theater box and I'd be like, you should be in the church box. And then it was back and forth. And when I was 18, I started traveling. One of my friends is a very successful worship leader, and she was really kind to be like, Cav, come out on the road with me.

    And I would just be aware of her environment. And that's really where it started was that I'd be on the road and I'd be like, we've got 10 people here and we've got this MD and we've got this person doing merch and like the, these two people are missing each other and their communication.

    What she's saying isn't being understood by the MD. And then, and it was like, I started seeing these missed wires and it was really just a lot of unawareness and it was a lot of people kind of in their own heads. And then it just became a thing for me because I grew up feeling very isolated and didn't have a ton of close friends.

    And so when I was 18, and at that pivotal point, I just really made a desire that I was going to be intentional with how I sought after relationships. Because like we were saying, you know, in my mind at that point, it was like, I'm not going to have a romantic partnership. So I really need to make sure that my family unit is set and that it's one of my choosing and that it's reliable. 

    And so I took it like a real job of like, I want to find my people and I want to call healthy people to me. So I need to be healthy. And so my mom is one of the best hosts on earth. One of the best cooks, one of the best homemakers, Southern Hospitality, yes, kind and just, it's like people feel at home with her.

    And so that's something that was just in me as far as this is how you treat people and how you behave. But then, uh, it really became something that people started just asking me more and more about. When I was in my twenties, I felt like I was on the phone most of the day, like talking to friends about their lives and at different places from musicians to like people in business to actors to, and, and people are like, Oh, I've got this thing going on.What do you think? 

    So it genuinely came out of that place. And I think my first coaching client that I had, was maybe when I was 27 or 28, and they had just found me online and they loved some social media videos I had been doing at the time and sought me out for coaching. And then I was sought out to consult for some large organizations and like, come in and speak to infrastructural things and hiring practices and who fits where.

    So it just kind of naturally snowballed, but it genuinely is the thing I'm most passionate about, is talking to you about the best way for you to garner the healthiest, wholest relationships you can and to eliminate all of the boundaries that could be in between people getting to know you and you feeling exactly who you are in whatever space you're in.

    [00:39:22] Nicole: And you are perfectly suited for that work. Like you said, growing up and you feel isolated. I think this is something too, if people don't feel like they belong, you become hyper vigilant and hyper perceptive because you are reading the room all the time. Too much. Yeah, too much. And you're an empath.

    I mean, so you have taken that skill set, which came from something that felt not great. And you're like an organizational development consultant. You're a therapist, you’re a life coach. You're like all of these things, but I feel like everybody needs that. And you're so perceptive and intuitive. And so it's really, really a gift that, I don't know that that many people can help other people the way that you do. 

    [00:40:06] Cavanaugh: That means a lot. Really, thank you for saying that. I think that, yeah, it's, it's genuinely been the last probably like four years where I'm like, Oh, this is what all of this time has been for. And all the different types of people I've been around at every kind of different point and the amount of discomfort I felt. 

    [00:40:28] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. All those years that we were talking about at the beginning of like, it wasn't time for you to walk in Kensington Gardens with Jesus and have the talk. 

    This is what it was doing. It was lining you up to like, you built this skill set through hardship and then now you're like, Oh, okay. Right. Now I know my purpose. Well, now I can demystify it.

    [00:40:44] Cavanaugh: Yeah, that's, that's the thing too, is that it's like, there's no use of, of this in me if I can't actually make it digestible and actually give it away to your point. 

    You know, it's like, I'm a creative too, but genuinely this is the thing that I feel like the Lord has allowed me to work through and navigate so that I can walk with other people through it.

    And, uh, you know, I think that a lot that I talk about in the book is, is I feel like I want to say, if you're a very socially aware person who doesn't have like kind of break points in your friendship, I feel like the first few chapters are maybe like not remedial, but in the sense of like understanding very basic things like, Hey, when you talk about yourself in a conversation for too long, people will start getting disinterested and they'll check out.

    Or like if you, you know, if you're coming into a room with an agenda, people can feel it. If you're in an environment and you feel uncomfortable, can I give you some quick little hacks to just get out of your head?

    And so we kind of start there, but the truth and the heart of the book is that I want people to understand that they can actually design the type of relational world that they want. 

    And to that point of choosing oneself, because even when you say that's like that, that I wrestle with that language. Just because of upbringing and two, I'm like, I don't feel like I'm necessarily, not choosing myself. I am choosing myself and I'm having to choose my way forward. 

    But when I say choosing myself, it means like me above the Lord. That's the connotation. That's the connotation within my background. 

    And so I've had to choose genuinely walking in authenticity with the Lord and being obedient. And where I feel like I am most obedient is in the way that I meet people. And so it's been my greatest connecting point.

    I'll walk into the room and I can genuinely feel from the Lord like, Hey, person in the corner over there has had a rough day. I just want you to go and sit next to them. Start asking them about the weather. They're going tell you what's up. And then I'll go over there and then we have a conversation and it ends up being life giving for both of us.

    And I'm always irritating friends because I'm, I will find people in the corner. I don't want to go and do a big group anyway. I'm totally down on the one on one.

    [00:42:46] Nicole: Yeah, I'm with you on that. That's me, too. 

    [00:42:46] Cavanaugh: I don't need it. But all my friends like group hangs and so I'm always in these places. But I'm like, no, the, the thing that the Lord has allowed me to develop is something that now I get to give away without it feeling costly, too.

    You know, it's like I had grown my awareness and my sensitivity to other people and being able to make any room feel good But I would be in an anxious hell in the middle of it. 

    And so the last few years for me has been able to take the principles, and I want to give them to you, and then I also want you to understand that there's a balance to this, and so that we can reach out and we can extend from who we are, but we can also do so with autonomy of who we are, and from a healthy place. 

    And I can go and make you a drink because I want to, not because I'm feeling pressured to.

    [00:43:33] Nicole: Yeah, I'm not people pleasing or being codependent, right? People use psychological language.

    [00:43:36] Cavanaugh: Yeah. And that was like a, you know. when you grow up looking for that approval or like, am I okay? Am I okay? Am I okay?

    Yeah, it does teach me a lot of those principles that I'm outlaying. But now what I'm doing is I'm giving you the principles with the actual health that supports it as opposed to from the place where I found it, which was in unhealth. 

    [00:43:54] Nicole: Yeah, yeah, because you're giving so much away and then you're like, uh, I'm just, I'm left with, I'm empty. 

    [00:44:01] Cavanaugh: Yes, yeah, I mean, you could, you end up being a doormat. It's like that whole thinking and having to even process out growing up in the church. It's like you serve and serve and serve and serve, but you're not a doormat. And the Lord hasn't called me to be a doormat. And like, people are like, well, the Lord says, you know, you turn the cheek that it's like, yeah, these are all different. These are isolated things that are taken out of context, trying to overlay.

    [00:44:20] Nicole: And different interpretations that people have of it. And you're like, that's not really, I'm not supposed to give myself away.

    [00:44:26] Cavanaugh: No. Because the Lord has, in me, something I'm supposed to steward. And so that's the thing, is that it's like now not up for debate.

    I think I used to walk into where I'm going like, can you validate this? Can you love me? So I got really good at being able to garner favor, but I was still in that anxiety. So now this conversation is like, let's talk about what works and doesn't work, but let's understand why we're doing what we're doing.

    And so if people will be kind enough to read it, I hope by the end of it, they see that I'm positioning and I'm going, get out of yourself. Get out of yourself because it's dangerous there and you will end up being a world unto yourself that's an island slowly sinking. I promise you. Get out of yourself and these are some simple ways to get out of yourself. 

    Now that you're out of yourself, let's talk about what you want. Because we always start with what we want and I'm like, you consumed with yourself can't tell me what you want. You get out of yourself, go and love somebody else, ask them about their day, and then we'll come back and talk about you.

    But we stay so consumed with our worlds and what we're dealing with, we're not necessarily willing to do that. It's genuinely the only way forward and into health, and into really knowing where you're supposed to walk, the people you're supposed to be with. 

    If I've decided who I am, and I'm like, no, I actually want to walk with a certain amount of character and integrity, and that my friends know that they can rely on me. Or that my family knows that when I say I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it and I'm going to be there.

    That also means that if I hold that line and I look around my relational circle and I see a bunch of people who aren't willing to hold the line, it's not a lopping off and going, now you don't get to play with me.

    It's just going totally fine. This is where I'm at. And God bless it. God bless you. Like, genuinely, I'm an open door policy.

    [00:46:11] Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and you're, like we were talking about, you're not shaming anyone. You're not judging anyone at all. 

    [00:46:14] Cavanaugh: No, not at all. It's just that I'm not doing that anymore. So what I'm really hoping through the book is that, like, we start to see some ponds of health. 

    Because it really takes a person having to decide like actually I can be the difference in this room.There's so many environments I've gone into where I'm like, Oh, it feels heavy. I don't like the way these people are talking. They're gossiping. I can feel the thing they just said about this is toxic. 

    Bbut guess what, Nicole? I can change that atmosphere. I'm going to be kind and I'm going to invest in that place.

    But then we're going to take a step up out of the water. I'm still here with you. Let's take a step up, out. And you do that in ways of like, someone's having a really toxic conversation. I will genuinely just not engage. Like, if someone's wanting to get into a gossip thing with me, straight to, I'll just be like, Hmm.

    And people will feel it. And then I'll just change the subject. I'll be like, Oh my gosh, tell me about this thing over here. And we slowly move the bar. And it's not me trying to control. It's me trying to say, I want to talk to you. I'm just not going to meet you.

    [00:47:11] Nicole: You’re holding your standards of integrity and also what you want to see in the world.

    I had a therapist that would say to me, you either have all of your walls down and everything can get to you and you're giving everything away and you're just depleted and injured. Or you have the wall up and nothing gets to you in a bad way, but also you don't get to experience anything. And she was giving me this example.

    She goes, you know, I have a dog and my dog loves to interact with the people that walk by and other dogs. She goes, if I put up a wood fence, my dog is protected. But she can't have the beautiful experience of, like, reaching through and connecting with the humans and the animals that go by. If I put up no fence, she's running out into the street, she's getting into dogfights, somebody gets bit because she's excited or whatever.

    But if I put up a chain link fence she can see everything. She can reach through with her nose. People can reach through and pet her. She gets the genuine connection while still being protected. And she was like, you, Nicole, need to learn when to erect the chain link fence. And that's like a chain link fence moment when you're like, wow, this does not serve me, or anyone, or what I want to see in the world. So I'm going to connect with you, right? 

    And I have certainly experiences, I'm sure you have as well, people in your life, whether it's family or people you have to work with or something, where you're like, I have to be around these people. The chain link fence is so important because you're like, I can connect with you for the good, the collaboration or whatever it is, but that other toxic stuff, that's where the fence is protected. And I feel like that's what you're doing just the way that you show up.

    [00:48:42] Cavanaugh: You definitely don't want to be a wall, and you can have no walls, and people love that. But people love that. That's not so much fun for you. 

    I said this to a friend the other day and I was like, oh goodness. He was like, you know, when I come into a room with a, you know, with a friend, like I can throw them your direction or to like X, Y, and Z other person because you know, they're a soft place to land. 

    And I said to this person, be careful that you don't continually throw to the soft spot because the soft spot will become calcified.

    Soft spots don't want to always be soft spots. And so you can, and I did, make a life for myself where everyone was just like, Cav’s got it, Cav’s got it. And it's like, no.

    [00:49:21] Nicole: Nope, nope, nope can't do that. No, I can't be that all the time because you get bruised. You're like an overripe peach. 

    [00:49:30] Cavanaugh: As I've been described many times.

    [00:49:33] Nicole: So I have two questions to wrap with. 

    One is the work that you are doing. What is a common thread you see? And it might be an insecurity or maybe it's something that doesn't really come naturally to most people. Something that you kind of see across the board that everybody maybe could just like shine the light on themselves a little bit.

    [00:49:53] Cavanaugh: Yeah, to be honest, the first thing that comes to mind is that people don't feel like they have the right to advocate for new relational dynamics. People feel very trapped in what is, and people feel very much like the patterns they've experienced with other people are going to be what they experience. think that the way they've shown up is gonna be the only way they can show up. 

    There's like a stuck mentality thing of this will never change that I feel like is a very consistent theme that I see. You know, there was a woman that I was working with who was, who was just her family and the way that they actually handled her was so manipulative. And it was really, it was tough for me to like listen to and then to hear about the extortion and stuff like that. And I genuinely just asked her, do you want it to be this way? And she was like, well, this is how it is. And I said, that wasn't my question. Do you want it to be this way? And she was like, well, no, I don't want it to be this way. And I was like, well, then I have news for you. It doesn't have to be this way. 

    You get to choose to do it differently. And we can put some boundaries in place. And we can put that backbone up in you and get people to respect you for who you are. And you can love them while you're doing it. 

    And so we worked together for a little over a year and now she's doing really well. But it's like when you haven't been permissioned to want better or to want different or to go like, Oh, actually, I've been miserable, and I don't have to stay in this misery. Or this person has consistently taken advantage of me, and you're telling me I could put a stop to that? And I'm the person who's like, oh, yes, we can. 

    [00:51:20] Nicole: You can.

    [00:51:21] Cavanaugh: Yes we can. And we can do it lovingly. And it doesn't have to be violent.

    [00:51:24] Nicole: Yes. This is not a good example because it is a dynamic with my ex-husband, which was an abusive, toxic relationship.

    And I left in 2022. That year I was doing a lot of work on myself to build that exact thing, the backbone, right? Because I had just kowtowed to him for so long and just, yeah, okay, whatever you need, whatever you need, abandon myself, abandon myself. The day that I left I said to him, I have a backbone of titanium and you cannot penetrate it anymore. And he said, I've seen it. 

    And the dynamic had been starting to shift a few months before that conversation, but I knew we can't stay in this. But even so in that kind of relationship, I was able to pivot how I showed up and he knew it. And I had to leave for, you know, my own, it wasn't an unsafe, it was not physically abusive, but emotionally and verbally, but I just say that because when you said that, I was like, this is actually possible.

    [00:52:24] Cavanaugh: Even in the most extreme of circumstances.

    [00:52:26] Nicole: You can still choose to leave because it was the right thing for me to do. That was what I had to do for my integrity and mental health. But even then. 

    [00:52:34] Cavanaugh: Oh yeah, I've realized some of my best communicating is just being, and it's really, it's, it's like that, that has been a thing that I'm like, Oh, people, people see me differently and I will communicate.

    Like you said, it's like, I will show it and then communicate it. You don't communicate it and then show it, right? You just start showing it. And then when people have questions or then when things come up, then you can open up that conversation. But it really is remarkable what it develops in you. And it actually has given me so much more space for other people too, to just feel like, no, I'm stewarding my yeses and nos.

    I'm stewarding where I'm willing to give myself and where I'm not. And that allows me to show up joyfully where I show up. And it allows me to feel rest when I need to, which is a new concept for me. And so it's interesting that I'm kind of like going through this thing after writing that book, because it's like those tools and stuff have been in me.

    Now I'm lovingly and, like with health, looking at them and being able to communicate them to an audience. And it's not even about like choices as much as perspective of like, I want you to go into the room, eyes up and aware of who's in it and not consumed with yourself. And when you do, oh friend, great things are going to happen.

    [00:53:47] Nicole: When you're in your own head, you're in your own way. 

    [00:53:49] Cavanaugh: Yes, fully, which I'm an expert at too. That will be my next book.

    [00:53:53] Nicole: That will be your next book. In your own way. For now, Read the Room. Yes. We're going to put it in the show notes so people can see it and we'll put your Instagram and all of that on there.

    [00:54:02] Cavanaugh: Thank you. 

    [00:54:02] Nicole: But as we wrap this conversation, I know you struggle with choosing yourself and I hadn't thought of it that way, but I get what you're saying. 

    [00:54:09] Cavanaugh: Yeah. 

    [00:54:09] Nicole: For me, and for Here For Me, it's really walking in alignment with your authentic self. And Jesus can be part of that journey. That is you choosing to be in relationship with him.

    But reflecting on everything you've shared and everything you've been through, what is the most important thing you have done to choose yourself? 

    [00:54:29] Cavanaugh: Oh boy, that's a hard question. And to be honest, it's not a conversation I've had with most people. And I appreciate the open space and thank you for even asking the questions.

    I really am okay and I'm very grateful to be in this season and I feel like it was my survival. It was like, I had to become so discontent and so pressurized and also have had all the years that I had to build out relationship here. And L.A.  has felt like another home for me for the past decade and some change.

    So it's like, it's all been set the way that it was going to roll out and it's okay. That was the biggest decision I think was just going like, it's okay for people to not like me. It's okay for people to think I'm going to hell. It's okay for people to be really disappointed and for people to be angry.

    I'm going to be really honest with the Lord and I'm going to walk this out as authentically as I can. And even with my parents, that's been the dynamic, is that I'm like, it's not for y'all to talk to people about. And I know that, like, you know, I'm sure that there have been conversations and that's fine. But it's genuinely a place that, no different, where I'm saying, I'm not telling everybody you've gotta be over there. And like, that you have to agree and think everything. 

    But I'm over here. And you're always welcome over here. And so I have enough space. And I told my parents when we had this conversation of final kind of like, Hey, so you can meet somebody and would you be open to that? And all of that. I remember the silence and the peace of just like, we've said the things.

    And my parents were like, Of course we love you. And of course we want to be in your life. And it was, uh, I don't know, for me, that was like the biggest elephant looming in the room of like, am I going to be completely ostracized? For everyone, and I made the decision knowing that I could be. ully with that knowledge of like my family might not want anything to do with me. I might not be welcome at Thanksgiving, all that kind of stuff. 

    Now, my parents have never communicated that they would, but that's the fear. And so that was, yeah, that was my survival moment. And I think that, that yeah, I chose myself. And I feel like I'm really grateful what it's developed in me and who I am. I mean you wouldn't recognize me from a couple years ago. 

    I felt like so many times I'd come into a room looking like I was on something because I just am so consumed with every little thought and everything that feels so heavy in my mind And so moving out here and going no, it's okay the Lord and I're gonna walk this out has been like, genuinely, I feel like lopping off tons off my shoulders.

    And to now it's like, walking is fun. I didn't realize walking's fun because I was, Oh, it was always so heavy. Oh, I just was always so miserable. Oh, my sleep's getting better. I had a rash on my eye for about a year and a half and my psychologist was the one who was like, yeah, so the doctor's not going to tell you that's it's literally just.

    [00:57:31] Nicole: It’s stress manifesting in. Yeah, I mean, I've had so much of that happen. Real talk. And you are living proof that the truth will set you free. Thank you so much for being here. 

    Thank you, Nicole. 

    Cavanaugh James is a shining example of what it looks like to choose yourself to not only walk an unblazed path, but to do so knowing you might lose everything, family, friends. It's your work and life as you know it. It comes from recognizing that you're out of alignment with who you are and what you're meant to do.

    It's knowing that all the losses are worth the potential gains, even when they're not guaranteed because living a life that's not true to you actually isn't living at all. I'm grateful to Cavanaugh for sharing his journey of coming to grips with his sexuality. 

    As he mentioned, it's the first time he's shared this publicly and it was an honor to hold space for his story. Because it's not just a story of coming out. It's a story of coming into alignment. 

    Anytime you do the hard inner work, as Cavanaugh has done, to understand who you are and what you're meant to do in this lifetime, you begin to recognize that choosing to walk your own path means making hard decisions.

    Admitting you're living out of alignment forces you to question your life choices. And that comes with grave consequences. Making new choices that blow up your world, turning a blind eye to the knowledge you now have. Or continuing the course you're on with full awareness that you're abandoning yourself.

    Here's what I know: It's really hard to do the inner work, to admit the truth about yourself, how you show up in the world and the choices you've made. To admit the truth about your upbringing, your family, the people you've surrounded yourself with. To admit you've perhaps chosen safety over self integrity.

    But here's what I also know: When you start healing the shadow parts of yourself, saying hello to them, and integrating them into your experience, letting them guide you instead of paralyze you, the world opens doors you not only refuse to knock on, but those you've never even seen. You'll find you progress rather quickly, because the unblazed path on the other side of those doors is wide open.

    Maybe that's the way we need to think about it. Instead of seeing the bumps and potholes, and that we'll navigate them, at least initially, on our own, the path is unencumbered. 

    It's yours to wander at your own pace. It's yours to fly freely down at a speed you'll never achieve in the traffic laden road everyone has chosen. On that road, you're in the company of others. But is it good company? Or is it company that, as the adage goes, loves misery? 

    For Cavanaugh, there is comfort in walking his own path because he's not alone. His faith, his relationship with the Lord, is a constant source of comfort, of understanding and love when those around him may not offer the same. 

    This episode isn't a case for or against religion. It's a case for recognizing what you need to be true to yourself. It might be faith, it might be therapy, it might be meditation, or journaling, or pets, or community. It's likely a combination of things, and only you know what that looks like.

    As Cavanaugh and I discussed, the idea of choosing himself initially made him uncomfortable. As if he was choosing himself over the Lord. But it was choosing to walk the path the Lord intended for him, with the Lord beside him. This choice, to choose ourselves, is available to all of us, regardless of our faith, sexuality, or whatever path we're currently walking.

    It's the choice that will cause much of what we know to crumble, that will feel like the foundation beneath us is falling away. The choice that will leave us untethered, which can feel like floating, aimless, and alone, but is actually what it feels like to be free.

    This episode of Here For Me was produced by Tulla Productions in association with You & Me Media. My deepest gratitude goes out to our producer, Courtney Acuna, our editors, Tonya Peat and J.D. Delgado, our production assistant, Sarah Carefoot, and designer and illustrator, Amy Senftleben.

    If you enjoyed this episode, I'd love it if you'd follow the show, rate, review, and share it with people you love. You can also follow me on Instagram and YouTube at nicolejchristie and find show notes and transcripts for all episodes at hereformepodcast.com.

    Until next time, thank you so much for listening. Here's to you being here for you…and to the power of choosing yourself.

Nicole Christie
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