Narcissism & Schema Therapy with Shirin Peykar, LMFT
Los Angeles-based marriage and family therapist Shirin Peykar shares her experience with narcissistic abuse, explains the spectrum of narcissism, and discusses how schema therapy aids in trauma and abuse recovery by putting our grounded selves back in the driver’s seat.
Show Notes:
Background information on the modality of schema therapy
Defining narcissistic personality disorder
Learn more about healing from narcissistic relationships with Dr. Ramani Durvasula
Visit the ISST (International Society of Schema Therapy) website recommended by Shirin
Follow Shirin on Instagram
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[00:00:03] Welcome to Here for Me: a podcast about the power of choosing yourself. I'm Nicole Christie, and I'm honored to be here with you to share life-altering stories, lessons learned and advice from leading experts that will help you show up for yourself with the love, honor, compassion and encouragement you give to others. Because just as we say, “I'm here for you” to show we care for someone, saying “I'm here for me” to ourselves is the best form of self-care.
In the first two episodes, I talked about how I worked with a therapist to address trauma as well as abuse I'd experienced from multiple people throughout my life. I mentioned that schema therapy and somatic experiencing helped me, and I wanted to provide some expert perspective on these modalities, particularly schema therapy, and how it aids in recovering from trauma. I'm pleased to welcome Shirin Peykar, a Los Angeles based licensed marriage and family therapist with over ten years of experience in psychotherapy. Shirin specializes in complex PTSD, narcissistic abuse, recovery and divorce. She's a certified individual schema therapist, and certified Clinical Trauma Professional. Shirin’s work is also heavily influenced by her own experience with narcissistic abuse. It not only led her to focus her practice on this area, but recognize what she needed to do to start choosing herself. We'll talk with Shirin about her story and how she helps her clients on their path to recovery and healing. Shirin, welcome to Here For Me.
[00:01:45] Shirin: Thank you. Nicole, it's so good to be here with you.
[00:01:47] Nicole: I'm so happy to have you join us in the first two episodes. I shared my experience working with a schema therapist, which is why I was thrilled to meet you and have you join us today for this conversation. So we're going to talk about your practice and your focus on helping people heal from trauma and abuse, particularly through schema therapy. But first, tell us your story and how it led you to this work.
[00:02:16] Shirin: I'll start from somewhat at the beginning. I graduated from USC and got a masters in marriage and family therapy, and I begin my practice, my journey as a therapist. And during that time, in that process, I met someone. I got married a few years after that in my late twenties. And mind you, in school I had learned about narcissistic personality disorder. As it's written, I was aware of what that kind of looks like. So we got married, and a few years after that, we had a child. And, you know, in any relationship, there's conflict. And you kind of chalk things up to being young and just kind of conflict. And I think at some point after we had our son, the differences in parenting styles really revealed more. And it showed some of the layers of relational problems that I hadn't been aware of. So some of the things, for example, like self-centeredness, difficulty empathizing with me and our child, a lack of accountability for his actions at times, devaluing me at times, having these angry, rageful outbursts. And ultimately it led to more and more conflict. And it got to a point where I realized this is abuse and it's being witnessed by our infant son. And at this point, our son was about seven months old. So during the marriage, of course, there would be ups, there would be highs, there would be lows. And it's sort of like the highs would get not as high, but the lows would be lower and lower, and more conflicted, and more really just things you can't ignore anymore, things you can't excuse anymore.
[00:04:08] And I realized that, wow, these are the signs of a covert narcissist, which is very different than what I had learned about in school, which is more the grandiose kind of narcissism. So at some point, things get worse and worse and we end up getting divorced. And I find myself in a high conflict divorce. My world is turned upside down. I was a new mom raising a child pretty much by myself at this point. And I was going to court all the time in a very long, drawn out divorce. And I was grieving the life that I had planned to have. I thought I did everything perfectly. And thankfully I had a support system and I spent several years healing from this incredibly traumatizing chapter of my life. So it's shaped the work that I do now, and really has me now more in a specialized area of working with clients who have similar kind of relationships. It was like I needed to turn not only the pain but the information that I got, the experience that I got, the things that I learned just about narcissism. It's not just this grandiose type of person that's very clear to most of us. It's very evident when you walk into a room. There are other types, and one of them is the covert/vulnerable narcissist. And again, I was the one who learned about this in school. I was someone who was a therapist at this point.
[00:05:37] Nicole: Can you tell us more about the covert narcissist? Because I really think that people don't understand that that is a thing.
[00:05:44] Shirin: So generally speaking, the umbrella of narcissistic personality disorder includes selfishness, self-centeredness. Even at the extent of exploiting others to further their own needs. Right? There is a lack of empathy or underdeveloped empathy, depending on the spectrum of narcissism. And then we find that there's also often a lack of accountability, like authentic accountability, lack of remorse. Sometimes that can show up. This is such a difficult personality to really kind of understand because they can sometimes show up with apologies, but it's not really because they feel sorry. It's because they don't want to lose something.
[00:06:29] Nicole: There's a manipulative factor to it. I saw something the other day, and I'm curious from your professional perspective, I'm sure this is more extreme, but it said something about narcissists don't spend 100% of their time abusing you. They spend 80% of their time abusing you and 20% trying to convince you that they didn't. And so that 20% is those moments maybe that you're talking about. It's probably not exactly 80/20, obviously, but that, “oh, I am connecting,” But there's a reason behind it and it's probably not pure.
[00:06:58] Shirin: Yes. Yes. A lot of the time, often there is a lack of empathy or an underdeveloped empathy. There's a difficulty with authentic accountability, deeply insecure. It's very common to get a rageful, angry outbursts when they feel shame to feelings. And vulnerability is very, very uncomfortable and triggers anger. Manipulation is very common. There are many dynamics that take place that help them to manipulate people. It's difficult to manage and to understand these relationships because again, at times they can appear very, very nice and kind and caring and connected.
[00:07:40] Nicole: It's not terrible 100% of the time. And that's confusing to I hate the word victim, but the people that are at the mercy of this kind of behavior.
[00:07:50] Shirin: Yes, I like to call them survivors.
[00:07:52] Nicole: That's a much better word. But covert narcissist, they're more trying to get you to feel sorry for them. It's a different type of reeling in than the, you know, showy, flashy thing that is magnetic.
[00:08:05] Shirin: Yes. The reeling in with the covert is more coming from a place of vulnerable, victimized life has been so hard for me, for me place, whereas maybe with a grandiose it's the flash and the shine and the charm and the charisma and the “Hey, you want to be with me. Look how great I am.”
[00:08:26] Nicole: You were saying you experienced more of the covert.
[00:08:28] Shirin: Yes, the covert was definitely again, I knew what the grandiose looks like and feels like. That was very clear in our learning because we learned about diagnoses and NPD is in the DSM. So it's a clear personality disorder. But the covert, the tight, which is what I experienced, was not something I was aware of or had any idea because it could look so different. There's more of like, I need saving or I want to rescue her. There's an innocent vibe to the covert and innocent again, maybe victimized. I knew I was looking for someone who was trustworthy, who was respectful and kind and calm. These were things that I knew that I wanted in a partner. And he checked off those boxes.
But then there was another side, and that other side was very different. And that's often what you see with narcissists, too, when they don't get their way. You may get to see the other side when they're slighted. You may see the other side when there isn't much in it for them to remain in the relationship.
[00:09:42] Nicole: So the threads of narcissism are interesting and the spectrum that exists when you look at survivors (and I really do love that word). What are some of the common threads that you see in people who have had a narcissistic person? And it could be anybody. It's often a romantic partner or life partner, but it can be a parent, it can be a friend, it can be a colleague. What are some of the common threads that you see in those people who end up with a partner like this?
[00:10:13] Shirin: So with survivors, which is a majority of my practice and the clients that I see, we do very thorough assessments of their schemas. And schemas are essentially patterns in the way we think patterns and the way we feel or patterns and the way we experience ourselves or others. So they're essentially these long standing themes or patterns that are strong, self-perpetuating beliefs that we experience as our truths. And these are formed when we have unmet needs from our childhood. And then the schema forms, and it prevents us from getting those needs met in our adulthood. So we do thorough assessments with clients who come to work with me, using the schema therapy lens, and we tend to see that there are multiple, but we see over and over that there's this sense of emotional deprivation, which is the expectation that people won't be there to meet their emotional needs, like empathy, nurturance, protection. And that leads you to feel kind of lonely in the world. And we find that we kind of look for people to fill that void. Narcissists can often appear as being that person that's going to fill that void - until they don't. And then another schema is the defectiveness or shame schema, and that is this essence of feeling flawed or bad or not enough in some way. Another schema is abandonment or instability. That is basically the sense that people are going to be unreliable for support or connection that includes a fear of abandonment. And then there is the mistrust and abuse schema, which is the expectation that people are going to hurt or abuse them, their subjugation and self-sacrifice, which is basically what people are focused on the desires or needs or feelings of other people over their own. So that is: I want to gain your approval. I want you to love me. I want to avoid any consequences of asserting my needs or my feelings. And hey, if I take care of you and I focus on your needs and feelings, then, well, we're going to have a connection.
[00:12:31] Nicole: Mm hmm. Narcissists love this one.
[00:12:33] Shirin: They love this one. That's right. Me, me, me. Yeah. You shouldn't have. Needs your feelings like it should be all about me. And then the last one we find is unrelenting standards. And that is a belief that we have to meet our own very high internalized standards of behavior, performance achievement. And this is to avoid criticism.
[00:12:56] Nicole: So the type-A perfectionist, all of that would fall into that schema. That kind of behavior.
[00:13:03] Shirin: Yes. Super driven, works hard. And again, it's the intention is to avoid criticism. And again, narcissists kind of love that, too, because it's like, well, if you've worked super hard, you're likely successful and you make them look good. Look what I've got. Look at my partner. It's this extension of me. (This is if I'm a narcissist.) You're the extension of me. And if you're successful, will you make me look good? But an interesting thing, I think, to note is that narcissists also have often the same schemas.
[00:13:35] Nicole: Hmm. Interesting.
[00:13:36] Shirin: Isn't it? And it's just that we all kind of cope with our schemas and our patterns differently. The survivor is probably going to be more of a surrendering coping style, whereas a narcissist is going to overcompensate. So, for example, Survivor maybe will feel more defective or not enough and work hard to not get that feeling. They'll like become super successful, for example, to feel like I'm not going to get criticized. It helps me not get criticized right, if I've achieved a lot. Whereas a narcissist overcompensates. So a survivor surrenders to that feeling of feeling defective. I acknowledge that I feel that way. Whereas a narcissist is going to present to the world how amazing they are.
[00:14:21] Nicole: Oh, wow. So it's the same schema, but it's being expressed differently.
[00:14:25] Shirin: Yes, the coping style is different. That's exactly right.
[00:14:30] Nicole: So schema therapy is so interesting. And I mentioned I went through that with my therapist and it was super effective to understand these modes. Talk about why this is effective in recovery. Do you use it for narcissistic abuse, recovery and trauma? Both? Or is it more is more of an abuse recovery?
[00:14:49] Shirin: So I personally find that it's incredibly helpful with my clients who show up, usually with some sort of narcissistic abuse dynamic with someone in their life. Parent like you said, colleague, boss, sibling, partner. Schema therapy has been really helpful because I think we can capture a lot of the schemas that led them to that kind of partner. But schema therapy is actually a modality that's used for all kinds of trauma. Doesn't just have to be an emotional, abusive dynamic with a narcissist or personality disorder person. It's a modality that's actually known for really difficult, pervasive, long standing problems that haven't been worked through in other modalities of therapy. What I love about it is that it incorporates so many different components of therapy, like different modalities that we've got the emotional component, we have the cognitive, we have the behavioral, and then we have the relational. It's really deep. People usually have positive experiences with schema therapy.
[00:16:03] Nicole: Can you talk about once someone's schemas, and there are 18 total, right? And everybody pretty much has more than one several. But once they're identified, how is that method of therapy effective?
[00:16:16] Shirin: So much, just like we talk about schemas, we really have these interventions that help clients feel the schemas. So we talk about a particular situation, for example, and we talk about what you start to feel right as you're talking about this situation. And then we use the body because trauma is stored in the body. And I think schemas come from traumas, like unmet needs, which are it could be little traumas or they can be big traumas. So we do more of this bodily experiencing of the schema as you're talking about your present life situation. So if you have a relationship that's causing problems in your life, we sit and we sort of feel into what you're feeling is you're talking about the problem and what you're thinking. And we do this intervention called imagery, where you close your eyes and you start to feel into that. The feeling that you get and the feeling is often linked to a schema. And then what we want to do is we want to then link the feeling and the schema to the childhood originating experiences that created that schema to begin with. And we don't know exactly if that is the very moment that that schema was born.
But the idea is that these are themes, and they've happened over and over again. It isn't just like a onetime trauma. It could be, but the chances are that it's sort of been reinforced and perpetuated in your life in adulthood. So we not only talk about the schemas, we feel them. We start to challenge them on a cognitive level, on a behavioral level, and on a relational level, too. So your relationship with your therapist is incredibly important. With schema therapists, it feels more person to person, more that depth in the connection, the closeness, the therapeutic intimacy. It's a very intimate experience. It's still therapeutic in that it has boundaries, but it isn't that traditional kind of dynamic psychoanalytic blank slate. I'm just going to kind of listen.
[00:18:34] Nicole: I think what I loved about it was what you were saying about it's really integrated. So it was cognitive, it was body, audio, somatic, experiencing type work of where you're tapping into your body and paying attention. And that that was really useful for me because I kind of lost touch with what my body was telling me. And then it had to send me these giant health crises apparently to get me to pay attention. So just being able to tune in and recognize what happens when I remember something traumatizing and then when I would feel that in real life, I'd be like, oh, this is being triggered now, this is tied to something. And also I have an unmet need. So this tells me I need to use my voice. This tells me I need to set a boundary. I just found that so incredibly helpful because you don't really ever like, get rid of your schemas, right? You learn to manage them and not let them control you?
[00:19:24] Shirin: Yeah, I'd say that they are in the driver's seat. That's a common metaphor. It's like they're the drivers. Like those schemas, those parts of us that show up right when the schema is activated. A very maybe emotional part or a vulnerable or fearful part. And they're not really supposed to be the drivers in our lives. Like, “I see you, I hear you. You're scared. But, you know, I got this don't worry” kind of thing. And that's a big goal of chemotherapy is helping your more grounded self, take the driver's seat of your life and not choose that partner that doesn't meet your needs over and over again. Or maybe once you realize that this is a problematic relationship, like maybe not stay and not keep trying to change that person. It depends on which schema is activated, but the schemas are things that were once helpful. It's helpful to use an example. If we're thinking that the world is a place that we have to be fearful of and people are going to hurt us, this schema formed because at some point in your life, your environment was maybe an unsafe place. It was a scary place. People weren't always taking care of you and protecting you and keeping you safe. And so you develop that schema that the world is dangerous to adapt to an environment that unfortunately is unsafe. But maybe now you are in a safe situation and you're still feeling like you're unsafe. And that's where the schemas are kind of coming into play. Or in this case, when you have partners that are unsafe, we're reinforcing that schema, we're keeping that truth alive, and we don't have to because there are people that we can choose that will be kind and treat us well and not hurt us.
[00:21:21] Nicole: It's such a good encapsulation of exactly why this is so effective. Which leads me to thinking about the ways that trauma and abuse have been treated by therapists. One thing that I found really helpful for me when I was going through this was my therapist said, “it's not my job to tell you to stay in a situation or leave a situation,” that could be a job, that could be a relationship, could be anything. “But it's our job to use chemotherapy to get strong and be strong and develop this toolbox, essentially. And then you can kind of make decisions from that.” And that was shocking to me at first. So why is it not helpful to not only from a therapist, but from people who are supporting someone who's going through abuse, to force them to leave?
[00:22:13] Shirin: Well, I can speak from my own experience just from the get-go is that I wasn't ready. And I think it's tough to hear someone tell you that you should do something when you're not ready to. And it's really easy to feel judged and shamed if you don't leave. So I think it's hard to hear that from someone that's your support system or even from your therapist, because no one really knows what it's like to be in that situation. And for me, for example, I had a baby. There was so much that was going on just on that level where if someone said, you should leave. I would have felt incredibly overwhelmed with that. Timing is important. I think it's also important to say that you may never really feel ready leaving these relationships. There's so much that can go into that feeling hopeful over and over again, feeling fearful of the consequences.
[00:23:15] Nicole: Or legitimately stuck finances or their children or whatever make it so that they really don't know how they would logistically be able to survive outside of a relationship.
[00:23:25] Shirin: And I think certain relationships you can never really leave sometimes. Like when you're co-parenting, you have to continue to have a relationship in some form with that person or maybe even sometimes with family members. Again, I think the type of abuse and the extent is important to take into account, but sometimes people just can't. And I think that we have to give people the autonomy to decide if and when they want to. And what that would look like. So I think it's really easy to lose a client or friend if you kind of push your agenda and what you think is right for them, and maybe they may not be ready.
[00:24:10] Nicole: And I think, you know, we're talking about more. Psychological abuse. But obviously, if someone's life was in danger. People rallying to help them get to a safe space is different. And that's not the kind of abuse we're talking about here. But yeah, I definitely felt that, too. And I shared this in a previous episode that I did have people in my life who are like, “what are you doing?” And then you already feel so much shame that this is even happening. Once you become aware that this is what's happening, you're like, Oh, what's wrong with me? I have no self-esteem, I have no backbone. I've been allowing this. I'm a terrible person, I'm a weak person. And then you start to open up to people because you need that safe space. But then you get this response and it just piles on. Instead of people saying, “what do you need? How can I be here for you?” I had some friends that said, “I support you no matter what, but I want you to just be safe, be happy in your life, but I support you.” And that readiness piece of it is really huge. So to feel any pressure, yeah, you have to be able to go when you're strong enough to stand up and fight for yourself.
[00:25:12] Shirin: Absolutely. I think that's such an important point that when you're in these kinds of relationships, you already are kind of like often isolated. Narcissists are very good at isolating and creating this space of really putting you between a rock and a hard place, and cutting you off from your connections and your support. It's very common that people find themselves in that situation. So it's hard enough to feel comfortable coming to the support. You already also are going through your own self talk. Like you said, “What's wrong with me? I feel so embarrassed. How can I let someone treat me that way?” There's a lot of shame, a lot of often self-blame, shame, fear of that judgment from those around you. And it just doesn't help. And I think that it's really easy to lose your support when you are hearing that from them because you just you don't want to go to them anymore when you feel like you're letting them down, too, because you're not leaving your relationship.
[00:26:19] Nicole: Yeah, it's like, oh, now you're ashamed of me also, so I don't really need that. And you were mentioning how narcissists will often isolate from support networks, so you become almost dependent on them for whatever it is. But I think I also experienced chipping away at self-esteem, making you, kind of like gaslighting, and making you feel like you're crazy. So now you question your own logic, just brain foggy all the time. And so it's hard to think through any sort of plan to leave a situation that isn't serving you. When you question whether you know what you're doing or you just feel like everything is maybe a lie.
[00:27:00] Shirin: Yeah, that's a good point. And I think also to add on to that, I think we blame ourselves narcissists are very blaming and start to doubt yourself and you think, well, maybe if I did say that in a different way, or maybe if I wasn't so angry or... there's a lot of projection happening and we identify with what they're projecting onto us and they may be calling us controlling and they're really the controlling ones. But then you go, “maybe I am controlling.” Like that's something I heard about all the time. You're so controlling. So when we identify with that, we think, well, maybe I should be different, maybe I should try, maybe I didn't say this in that way. And I think sometimes therapists that maybe are not catching on to the full picture, seeing it really clearly, they may retraumatize clients by also saying, well, maybe if you said it in this way, why don't you try “I statements?” Why don't you know here, let's talk about other communication, things that you can try and that keeps the cycle going, too, because we keep thinking, if I show up differently, maybe this person won't yell or scream or be abusive towards me. Maybe it's me.
[00:28:13] Nicole: It's such a good point because some of the great advice I got from my therapist is exactly what you're talking about, which is you keep showing up as a healthy person – an emotionally healthy person trying to show up differently. I didn't understand correctly. Let me say it a different way, I think is maybe what, more traditional marriage and family therapy with a couple that's emotionally healthy, but just having conflict or communication issues. But that doesn't sound like it works in these situations.
[00:28:38] Shirin: Absolutely not. I think that we have to be careful at the same token of not saying don't even try your partners or narcissists wrong. But I think when you've gotten to that place where you try to. Over and over. That's when you've got to think. All right. Well, I keep trying. I keep communicating, I keep trying to express myself, but I keep feeling like it's my fault all the time. And the gaslighting and the manipulation and the projection and all of that is what tends to create these kinds of situations and sometimes reaching out for help, or if any of this resonates is like educating yourself on what narcissistic personality disorder and the different types look like, how they show up, and then you kind of then go into this, alright, well, what do I need to do now? How do I disengage rather than engage?
[00:29:31] Nicole: Can you talk more about disengagement? Because it's counterintuitive. Most of us have learned communication is key to resolving conflict. But why is disengagement important in these situations?
[00:29:41] Shirin: So disengagement is incredibly important because your reaction, your pain, your sadness, whether it's negative reaction like that response or positive like your praise or your complimenting, both of those feed the narcissists, we call it supply still supplies them. They still get what they need out of that interaction. And the thing is, it's like they're emotionally like children, right? It's like, think about it this way: it's like with kids. If you don't give them your positive attention, they're going to try to get it from your upset, your reactivity. It's sort of the same. They still get the attention. They still get that need met for attention, even if it's not positive. And often sometimes too, I'd say that what happens is when you are in that kind of engagement, not explaining how you feel and explaining and defending yourself, you give them ammunition to use against you with the over-explaining, and then you find yourself in a whole other level of conflict and the conversation just goes a whole other direction. They didn't hear you, they didn't empathize with you. They didn't understand how their behavior affected you. None of those needs get met. And again, if we think of it in schema terms, it perpetuates the schema that people aren't going to take care of me. People don't care about me. People are only going to hurt me, whatever the schema is. So things don't really change when you are having a natural reaction to a narcissistic person. It's counterintuitive.
[00:31:17] Nicole: It's totally counterintuitive. Like I'm not emotionally reacting. I'm not speaking really to you. I'm leaving the room or hanging up the phone or deleting the email or whatever it is. You were talking about the cycle. You mentioned that a couple of times. Can you talk about this abuse cycle?
[00:31:33] Shirin: Yeah. So usually we'll find that there is a love bombing or and that's the thing, it depends. So if it's with a grandiose, there may be more of that love bombing, kind of putting you on a pedestal. With a covert, the love bombing may be more of like, “oh, you listen to me or you're so helpful.” It's sort of like more from that victimized place of the love bombing or charming. It isn't so grand. It isn't such a big put on a pedestal. It may look differently. And then there's a devaluing and then there's a discard. And so as part of the devaluing, it starts to be like little digs, criticisms. It could be even big. Like I would hear things like, “Yeah, you're just not what I want. I want I want someone with this kind of hair and someone who looks like that” and, you know, not even taking into account like the human being in front of them. It's a complete devaluing of the relationship. It's just even like rewriting the story of your relationship or of your work where maybe you heard what a great employee you were and how much you contributed. And now it's like, “Yeah, this didn't look very good. I don't know what was going on with you, but this wasn't your usual work,” right? There's this sort of like dig and devaluation. When it's a discard.
[00:32:53] Nicole: They're almost blind to who you are as a human.
[00:32:56] Shirin: Yeah, it's very neglecting.
[00:32:58] Nicole: I would love your perspective on this, because I've talked about narcissism with friends, and it's such a very hot topic because of social media. I think everybody has the grandiose that's what everybody thinks that it is. And some people are always like, you know, I've heard narcissists are really controlling like, you know, they'll look in your phone and all this. But I've also experienced narcissists who almost don't know anything about you at all. It's the opposite of controlling. And most of these people, I think, that end up with narcissists are very kind and nice people, so you're like, “wow, you're lucky that you're with somebody who's kind and honest” because they could probably be completely taking you for a ride and because of the narcissism, actually, you don't know anything that's going on with them. Like you don't know details. But then there's the grandiose ones that are every single detail. Who are you with? Who are you calling? I have to call you every hour. Can you talk about that spectrum as well from a control perspective?
[00:33:48] Shirin: Yeah. So I think that that could fall under the neglectful narcissist, which is kind of like really nothing. There's a lot of neglect more than anything. You're just invisible to them. You don't really matter unless there's some need. They just don't care. You don't feel cared about or seen. And with other types of narcissists during maybe a love bombing phase or something like that, they may appear to really care about you and like they call you all the time, checking in every hour. They're asking you where you're at. And that can feel like, wow, he really cares or she really cares about me. She's really into me. This person really cares about what I'm doing and they want to talk to me all the time. So that could kind of show up as well.
[00:34:36] Nicole: You talked at the beginning about how you had learned about the grandiose. Do you feel like what is the reason that that full spectrum maybe wasn't talked about or taught in your program? Is it more of like it's just developed over time and we see more of a spectrum, or has it always been there? But the focus has been more on the grandiose from a clinical perspective.
[00:34:57] Shirin: I'm not exactly sure as to why it's not in the DSM. To me, clinically, I mean, that makes so much sense because that's what I see all the time, right? I hear about different people and their relationship with different kinds of narcissists. And it's very clear to me that there are many different types. Perhaps the people maybe that showed up for treatment were more of the grandiose type, because I also know that in the DSM, I think it says like one or 2% of the population meets the criteria. Right. And we know now it doesn't seem like it's one or 2%. I just feel like it's everywhere.
[00:35:36] Nicole: A lot more. Yeah.
[00:35:38] Shirin: So it may be that the narcissists don't show up for therapy. Their behavior isn't really affects them. Typically. We don't really see them complaining about their behavior. It's always somebody else who is the problem. And the other people around them are the ones suffering from their behavior. But I would love to see it in the DSM one day where it would talk about all the different types because it's sort of misleading surely was for me to think about it that way, that there was only the grandiose type because we miss so many other types of how that kind of presents in the world.
[00:36:16] Nicole: And so that education for therapists, especially in marriage counseling, I think would be very helpful. Exactly what you said. So many people end up in therapy trying to change how they show up, which we all need to do, that we don't show up 100% as we should for everybody in our lives. So it's always good to go and explore and think about how you can better show up in the world. But I think a lot of people who experience narcissism end up in therapy trying to fix themselves, and that only goes so far in this kind of relationship.
[00:36:46] Shirin: Yes, absolutely. And I'd like to add that they also may be trying to also fix or change the narcissistic person, too.
[00:36:53] Nicole: Yeah, that's a great point.
[00:36:54] Shirin: Once they do realize what they're dealing with, it's really easy to go, hey, oh, my gosh, guess what? I figured it out. You have narcissistic personality disorder. And I think if we went to therapy that we could fix this and everything will be great. And that's never going to go well. Never.
[00:37:16] Nicole: Yeah. Can you talk more about why that is?
[00:37:18] Shirin: You know, that it's the very core of the issue here is that there isn't an accountability for the problems in the relationship, that the narcissist is bringing.. the ways in which they're behaving. So if you're to name it, you're to call that out. It's just going to be met with You're the narcissist or here are all the things that you are or some other sort of blame shifting. So we find that it's more productive to talk about the behaviors that we're struggling with. Like when you go to therapy, if you were to go to couples therapy with someone you think is narcissistic or meets the full criteria, that we want to talk about, the behaviors: he or she really struggles to understand how I'm feeling or how they're affecting the kids, or it just feels like things are just always my fault. So you're describing the behaviors more than you're saying: “this person's a narcissist” because the reality is that the lay person can't diagnose. So it's really a tough territory. I have had clients who have shown up in couples, and I'll sit there and it'll take a while to even really fully grasp what's going on because narcissists may not show up as their narcissistic selves in that they're charming, very, very nice.
[00:38:39] Nicole: They know how to say the right things too.
[00:38:40] Shirin: Yeah, and I really don't want to send the message that they are people to hate or people to think negatively so much about. I mean, it's hard. We really want to kind of protect ourselves, take care of ourselves, and focus on ourselves and what we need to do to meet our needs. And I think that if we kind of reframe it more on our own needs and where and how we get caught into these situations with these kinds of personalities and how we can manage them. The focus, I always say, should be on ourselves.
[00:39:15] Nicole: Yeah, this conversation is so appropriate for this program of being here for yourself, Here For Me, right? So this kind of work is how do you show up better for you, stronger in the world. You can't fix anything outside of yourself, but you can show up differently, not to change another person, but differently and stronger for you.
[00:39:35] Shirin: Yes.
[00:39:36] Nicole: So if people recognize themselves in what we've been talking about, what advice do you have for them and how can they go about seeking therapy?
[00:39:50] Shirin: The support system is incredibly important. Whether your support is a therapist or if that's not feasible, group therapy, your family, friends, people that you can talk to, people you can be completely honest and transparent with and feel safe with. And I think that's incredibly important, especially in these kinds of relationships, because your support system and your circle, they are the ones that can keep you stable and remind you of the truth when you've been gaslit for so long, when you are in that kind of self doubt place or self-blaming place, or even in those hard times, those days that are just really, really difficult, conflict is like unbearable. We have to be able to reach out and have a support system that we can talk to. So we're not alone with this. This is really a very, very dangerous thing to be alone with. And I say an important thing, too, is just to be kind to yourself. I know at times it's hard, but we already have in these relationships... We already have someone outside of us really devaluing us and berating us and treating us with contempt. It's so important to be different towards ourselves, to be kind and compassionate and forgiving.
[00:41:11] Nicole: If someone wants to seek therapy, what is something to look for as they work with a new therapist?
[00:41:18] Shirin: So schema therapists can be found at the ISST website, which is the International Society of Schematherapy. The website is Schematherapy Society dot org, and you can find schema therapists all over the world. I would say with regards to finding a therapist, it's the first time you're seeking therapy. First of all, the connection is really, really important. There's a sense of closeness that I think has to be there and you just get to like the therapist, of course, let the trust build over time, but you've got to like the person. You've got to feel safe and connected with the person. And if it isn't a good fit, continue searching. It doesn't mean that that's what every therapist is going to be like. It's sort of like dating, you know, you've got to get out you know, and find your match. Ask for consultation calls if possible. That will give you a little bit of a flavor of what it's going to be like to work with them. And then if you can find someone who specializes in a relational abuse complex, PTSD or narcissistic abuse, I think it would be very helpful, because then you don't really have to educate your therapist and trust your gut. Just trust your gut when you're in sessions with them.
[00:42:37] Nicole: The consult piece you mentioned is important. A lot of therapists will do 15 or 20 minutes, which just gives you a sense of do you vibe well, Do you feel that level of comfort and something that, you know, I've had friends who've been with a therapist for a long time and they're like, I just feel bad. I don't want to leave. And it's like therapists are trained to not be offended. They want to help you, so it's not working for you. You can do that. But I think a lot of people feel guilty, you know, like they're breaking a friendship or something.
[00:43:04] Shirin: Oh, there's a schema right there!
[00:43:08] Nicole: It’s everywhere! Which one is that one?
[00:43:11] Shirin: That is the self-sacrifice scheme. I feel guilty. I feel guilty asserting my needs. Yeah.
[00:43:19] Nicole: Here they come up everywhere.
[00:43:22] Shirin: They sure do. If you're working with a schema therapist, I think that's something to bring up. Or even with any therapist. You know, I'm feeling like this isn't really a good match, and here's why. And sometimes we can work through that and process it and it makes the therapy even stronger. And I mean, other times it may not. You may just need to practice feeling the guilt and meeting your needs anyways, moving on to someone else.
[00:43:48] Nicole: Sure. And you mentioned your culture and. Certain cultural expectations and how that may or may not influence others in addressing a situation like this. Can you talk about that?
[00:43:58] Shirin: Yes. I’m Middle Eastern, Iranian. So culturally speaking, of course, divorce is not something that a lot of people are okay with. There's a lot of stigma, especially as a woman. I think the expectation is you should sacrifice your needs, you should subjugate. I was lucky that I had family that was very, very supportive and very understanding and supported me asserting my needs because it's very common in certain cultures, many cultures to just: you made a choice. You've made your bed, you got to lay in it, suck it up, and you're a woman, and it's your role to serve and are you going to break up your family? And so there's like many of the sort of dynamics that you hear that keep reinforcing that very schema. You're raised in a family where they continue to teach you that you shouldn't have those needs and I was really lucky to have family that was my understanding of one of my family members said, “you know, the choices are between bad and worse at this point.”
[00:45:04] Nicole: Oh, that's a great way to put it. I think it's good to talk about that, because I think a lot of women were raised believing you sacrifice for your family. You don't have needs or maybe caught in cultural expectations or societal expectations that preclude them from doing what's best for them.
[00:45:21] Shirin: Yes, absolutely. It's a very difficult position to be in. It's like... that's the very perpetuation of the schemas.
[00:45:28] Nicole: Shirin, thank you so much for coming on Here For Me and talking about how people can be here for themselves, how they can recognize trauma and abuse and how different schemas show up. I love the description of how schemas serve you when you're growing up, but then they get to a point where they don't and it's why this work is so helpful. So thank you for sharing your story. Thank you so much for coming on and being candid.
[00:45:56] Shirin: Of course, I feel like sometimes we go through things. Part of the lesson is what can I do with this pain and how can I use it for good?
[00:46:06] Nicole: Which is exactly what you have done. You have taken your experience and are healing others, which is absolutely beautiful.
[00:46:14] Shirin: Thank you. My pleasure.
[00:46:17] Nicole: I'm so grateful to Shirin Peykar for joining us today and being candid in sharing her story, as well as lending her expert perspective on abuse, trauma and schema therapy as an effective modality for recovery and healing. As always, I want to leave you with a few bites of wisdom from this episode for you to noodle on:
Narcissism exists on a spectrum. Shirin talked about grandiose, covert, and neglectful narcissists, and she emphasized the importance of educating yourself. If there are people in your life who match these descriptions. But as she mentioned, rather than diagnosing people, pay attention to and address behavior, focus on how someone's behavior impacts you and whether it serves you and the relationship. Not checking off a list of traits to put a label on them. What matters most is how someone treats you and not why they do so. Schemas form as a way to get our needs met when we're growing up, but there comes a point in adulthood where they no longer serve us and in fact get in our way. Working with a therapist to identify and understand your schemas doesn't mean they go away. They're just no longer in the driver's seat. Schema therapy trains your more grounded self to take the wheel. No matter how counterintuitive this seems, it's not helpful to push someone to leave an abusive situation, whether that's a job, a relationship, or a family dynamic.
[00:47:45] Of course, the extent and type of abuse is important here, and it doesn't apply if someone's life is in danger. But as Shirin points out, we have to give people the autonomy to decide if and when they want to leave. They already feel shame for finding themselves in this situation. So the additional shame around staying just raises the risk of them ending their relationship with you. You can best support them by being there for them however they need, which is probably the simple task of listening and loving them exactly where they are.
Shirin Peykar is a licensed therapist in California, and Florida, and provides coaching for people outside of those states. You can learn more about Shirin and her practice at Sherman Oaks Therapist and on Instagram at Let's Talk Divorce.
Here for Me is produced by Lens Group Media in association with Tula Productions. My deepest gratitude goes out to Shirin Peykar for joining us today and to the people I am blessed to work with in bringing this show to life. Dave Nelson, Stacy Harris, Amy Kugler, Amy Senftleben, and Amanda McGonigal. If you like what you hear, please follow Here For Me and leave us a review. Until next time, I'm Nicole Christie. Thank you so much for listening. Here's to you being here for you and to the power of choosing yourself.